EP. 3: E-inigoowa'ikawaag oowi aki, abi-izhinoowa'amawishin

In Episode Three, Doris invites Gayle Pruden for a very special storytelling session. Gayle is known and loved by many Indigenous people across Turtle Island, the diversity of the communities that love Gayle is vast, from the Two-Spirit community across Turtle Island to the Jingle Dress dancer community to the Grandmother (Kokum) community in her circles. Her storytelling focuses on her traditional upbringing by her great-grandfather and her grandparents who raised her. She says they imparted love to her in her upbringing and it is love that continues to carry her into her present life, Gayle embodies how she was raised. She says her great-grandfather and grandparents did not experience residential school and spoke their Anishinaabe language fluently and according to Gayle, their traditional knowledges were strong.  Notably, in listening to her story about her great-grandfather and grandparents, what they passed on to Gayle was embodied culture and tradition, we do not see too much of this anymore in today's contemporary Indigenous world. Interspersed with Anishinaabemowin, Gayle tells her story with poignancy, wonder, beauty and of course with her unique and infectious Anishinaabe humor. She is a woman of indomitable spirit for the future and a gifted storyteller.

For more information about Indigenous Sexual Futures, and to see the BIOs of our featured guests, please visit the Feast Centre for Indigenous STBBI Research podcast website @ https://feastcentre.mcmaster.ca/podcasts

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

We would like to acknowledge the following for their contributions towards Episode 3 of Indigenous Sexual Futures 

Special Guest 

 Auntie Gayle Pruden (Dancing Bear)

Host Storyteller/Producer 

Doris Peltier


E-inigoowa'ikawaag oowi aki, abi-izhinoowa'amawishin (Rattle song)

Sung by Gayle Pruden 

(Special thanks to Jordy Ironstar for the remote recording of this sacred song.)

Technical Producer

Paula Burrows - Jupiter Productions 

ISF Theme Music and Creative Sound

Cozmic Cat, Classic Roots, Elder Gayle Pruden
 

Indigenous Knowledge Advisory 

Feast Centre Council of Elders and Gathering Lodge Committee  

Executive Producers 

Feast Centre Co-Leads - Randall Jackson & Renée Masching 

Feast Centre Staff 

Will Gooding (National Director), Catherine Booker (Research Coordinator) and Doris Peltier (Community Engagement Coordinator) and Feast Centre Research Assistants Bridget Marsdin, James O'Grady and Esther Kim

Podcast Branding Design 

Compassion Creative
 

 We acknowledge our funders 

Canadian Institutes of Health Research  

Indigenous Sexual Futures is produced on the ancestral lands of the Mississauga and Haudenosaunee nations within the lands protected by the Dish with One Spoon wampum. We acknowledge the ancestors of this territory, and we also acknowledge the lands and territories of all our guests. 

Suggested Reading list coming soon...

Transcript

Transcript of Episode 3 - E-inigoowa'ikawaag oowi aki, abi-izhinoowa'amawishin 

In Episode Three, Doris invites Gayle Pruden for a very special storytelling session. Gayle is known and loved by many Indigenous people across Turtle Island, the diversity of the communities that love Gayle is vast, from the Two-Spirit community across Turtle Island to the Jingle Dress dancer community to the Grandmother (Kokum) community in her circles. Her storytelling focuses on her traditional upbringing by her great-grandfather and her grandparents who raised her. She says they imparted love to her in her upbringing and it is love that continues to carry her into her present life, Gayle embodies how she was raised. She says her great-grandfather and grandparents did not experience residential school and spoke their Anishinaabe language fluently and according to Gayle, their traditional knowledges were strong.  Notably, in listening to her story about her great-grandfather and grandparents, what they passed on to Gayle was embodied culture and tradition, we do not see too much of this anymore in today's contemporary Indigenous world. Interspersed with Anishinaabemowin, Gayle tells her story with poignancy, wonder, beauty and of course with her unique and infectious Anishinaabe humor. She is a woman of indomitable spirit for the future and a gifted storyteller. 

(00:00 – 00:27) Doris Peltier: 

Indigenous Sexual Futures is produced by The Feast Center for Indigenous STBBI Research on the Ancestral Lands of the Mississauga and Haudenosaunee Nations within the lands protected by the Dish With One Spoon wampum. We acknowledge the ancestors of this territory, and we also acknowledge the lands and territories of all our guests. 

[MUSIC] 

(00:55 – 01:57) Doris Peltier: 

You are listening to Indigenous Sexual Futures, a podcast storytelling series that is produced by the Feast Centre for Indigenous STBBI Research. And yes, you heard the word ‘sexual’, ‘STBBIs’, and ‘research’ in my first sentence, hope that caught your attention. But you also heard the word ‘feast’, which is what we hope to do with all of you through this podcast storytelling series. You should also know that we are aligning this podcast series with a growing body of work by scholars, artists, writers, and community in Indigenous Futurisms. You will have to listen to our series to learn more about what Indigenous Futurisms is, and why we dropped the word ‘sexual’ into the middle of ‘Indigenous Futurisms’. Stay with us. Now, let’s get started. 

(02:01 – 04:43) Doris Peltier: 

Adiniwemaaganidook. E-amakawaataagoowazid dizhnigaas, waawaashkesh nidodem. Anishinaabe n’dow. Hello, and welcome to Indigenous Sexual Futures. My name is Doris Peltier. I am Anishinaabe and your host for this podcast storytelling series. Today we have a very special podcast storytelling session with a very special human being that many know as auntie, kokum, friend, and sister. Our beautiful guest for this podcast is Gayle Pruden. She is a gifted storyteller and a teacher to many. There is no self-promotion with Gayle, not one iota. She moves through the world humbly and walks gently on Mother Earth. Her ways are the ways that were instilled in her by her great-grandfather and grandparents that raised her. She embodies what they taught her. I remember meeting her for the first time more than a decade ago, when I was working at CAAN and was seeking to bring an Indigenous trans woman onto the CAAN Voices of Women Standing Committee. We called it the Vow. At the suggestion of Elder Elbert Macleod, who knew we were seeking an Indigenous trans woman for the Vow, he messaged me to tell me that Gayle would be a welcome addition, and you know what, he was right! I flew to Winnipeg to go meet Gayle. Our agreed upon meeting place was Nine Circles. I, in fact, met many of the girls when I got to my meeting place with Gayle. Word must have got out, as it always does in our communities. There is so much more I could tell you. Suffice to say, Gayle and I went for a walk together. We talked, and she told me there were only a handful of Indigenous trans left in Winnipeg. She told me that many had passed into the spirit world. And then she accepted the invitation to join the Women's Committee. There is more history of Indigenous trans women that needs to be told, but that will be for another episode coming down the pipeline. I asked Gayle how I should introduce her for this podcast. She said, ‘you can say I am 2-spirit trans.’ Let's listen to Gayle’s amazing story now. 

(04:43 – 11:40) Gayle Pruden: 

 [To be Transcribed - 4:45 – 5:37] So my name is Gayle Pruden, and I’ve introduced myself in my spirit name, and I’m known by this name in the spirit world, which is dancing – black dancing bear, and I'm with the Black Bear Clan. I was raised in Treaty Two, in a little reserve called Little Saskatchewan. And I now live in Winnipeg, that's Treaty One, and this is where I reside. I've been residing here since I was younger. But when I was being raised, that was the language that I first was raised with was ojibeway, ojibeway anishnaabemowin language. That was the first language that I learned. It was very difficult for me to learn your English language, but that's the only way we were able to communicate. And the thing that I talked about a little bit in my introduction was that how my grandmother always told us to be proud of the way that we speak in our anishnaabemowin that Creator gave us. Never to be ashamed of how we look as being brown people, and always love your people. Always help your people. Don't ever put anybody down because Creator watches us all here on Mother Earth. We are all equal, and this is the teachings that I live by today. And being raised by 3 beautiful people, was my grandmother, my grandfather, and my great grandfather. These are the 3 people that raised us on the reservation. And I truly believe, because I was the oldest of 5, I was the one who was always following my great-grandfather around. Falling, stumbling behind him, trying to keep up with him, but I knew that he knew that I was following him, so he just laughed, but I was his toy I guess. But what he was doing was medicine picking, which I didn't know until I got older, that’s what he was doing, because I remember he used to carry these 2 great big sacks on his back and one in front. The one, the one in the front was with the food. So the ones in the back, I didn't know what they were, but it was medicine picking. Because a lot of times he would name these medicines, and he would ask me the next day, ‘well, I told you what it was yesterday [To be Transcribed - 7:56 – 8:02], what is it?’ And I forgot all these medicines that I was brought up with, but maybe one day they'll come back, who knows. But it was in his special way of teaching me how to be Anishnaabe in the bush. And he must have known how special I was. He supported me as being who I was. I've always been 2-spirited as a child, and he, he must have seen what Creator was going to gift to me for the way that I walk my life today. And he nurtured me in that way, and not enough of these parents, they need to nurture their children, hold them up and show them pure love. And in order for them to do that, they need to start from their heart, you need to love yourself. And in that way all this love inside you pours out to other people, which is so easy. For me, it was so easy because I was raised by my grandmother, and we never had no words of love or anything like that. It was just their reactions on the face, by looking at how beautiful her smile was, that really made my heart jump to see her smile on her face. I would do anything in the world to see that smile. And nowadays, the way that our grandparents are treated it’s so shameful. I wish I could go back to those days where we used to take care of our loved ones always, no matter what it was. It was really hard work, but it didn’t matter, as long as we [saw] that smile on that beautiful grandmother’s face, is what we all thrived for as children. So, he was a medicine man, which I didn’t know about, because I know... as I grew older, there were a lot, a lot of people that used to come and see him, but I didn’t know. And he would heal them, but I only later on found out when I asked my late mother about that, and she said, ‘well it was something that we couldn't talk about back in the day, it was well hidden, it had to be hidden.’ So, knowing how he was a medicine man, he was also a singer and that was the reason why I followed him mainly, was to hear him sing [laughter]. He was such a beautiful singer, and a lot of times he would go... he had this great big garden, a potato garden. He had no tools, he just had his hands. He would set up a potato sack, cleaning out the weeds, and then... we were out in the opens and there was no shade, so we were like black black [laughter]. But I remember there was a little spot there where he had fenced off where the animals wouldn’t get to his garden, and between the fence and the garden, I think there was about three rows of corn. And that’s where I used to play while he was busy working on his garden. And then all of a sudden, I could hear him saying in the background there [To be Transcribed - 11:00 – 11:02]. That’s when he would say, ‘okay dance, I’m going to sing.’ So this is when... [laughter]. I don’t know how I danced, but hearing his voice, I would do anything for my great-grandfather also, because I loved him. I loved his spirit, he was a great big gigantic man with so much love. So that was when he started singing that song. Little did I know at that time, this is where my... already my life was being set at this garden, through this song. Because of the words in this song, is what I do today. And I will share that with you – that song that he used to sing. 

(11:41 - 15:28) Gayle Pruden: 

[Sings] 

(15:29 – 25:29) Gayle Pruden: 

And in the words of that song, [To be Transcribed - 15:31 – 15:36]. So [To be Transcribed - 15:37] the whole of this earth I shake and I rattle, it’s like a ripple. So it’s like [To be Transcribed - 15:46 – 15:47]. And then when he does the four directions, it’ll be like [To be Transcribed - 15:52 – 15:58]. But that’s the four directions. But at that time I was just a child, a small kid playing in the garden, and to hear him sing. And then when I got older – I dance jiggle dress now, and this is when I put these two together. Because if you see me on YouTube, that is me dancing all over the world in my jingle dress. And yet the words in this song [To be Transcribed - 16:29 – 16:31] is right there. So he must have known right from the start that where I’m going to be at today, at that garden. And I just love that, because I’m so - I'm so high on life. My spirit is way up above my head, and I share that with the people that I meet, that I come across. I love everyone – each and every one of everybody. It doesn’t matter even the street people, the drug people, they’re still people in the heart, they’re still people. And this is the way that my grandmother always instilled in all of us, not only in me but also my siblings. And today my younger brother, he is a medicine man. He has his own sweat in his backyard on a reserve, and he has a great big tipi. And this is a christian community, but what can they say. He belongs there, he has every right to do whatever it takes to make the healing of the community. So they don’t bother with him. And they... the name of my reserve is [To be Transcribed - 17:23] that’s like Sandy Bay is the nickname for it [laughter] the chop of the sand or something [laughter]. But it was a beautiful, beautiful site where I grew up. Because in front of our yard there is a great big gigantic lake, and then behind our house there was a great big forest and that’s where the garden was. So what more could you ask for. Like, even when... when I first heard about this vision quest, I had no idea what vision quest was. Because in English, things to me don’t mean as much as they do when you're saying something to me in ojibeway, I can feel you’re talking from your heart, and I can feel it in my heart. So, with vision quest, I later on found out – I just laughed. I didn’t laugh at the ceremony itself but I laughed because of the way our grandmother used to treat us as children. Where she would send us out to the bush, where we didn’t know what she was talking about. [To be Transcribed - 18:24 – 18:42]. So my grandmother would be telling me, ‘okay, it’s time now for your walk. You go for your walk, you go deep into that bush. You walk as far as you can, you’ll come to the place where you need to be, and that’s where you’ll be. And when you’re ready you’ll come home.’ So when I went for that walk, I didn’t know where I was going, I didn’t know what I was doing, I just walked. Because my grandmother told me to. And it was thick bush, so I had to find the two little sticks to find my way through the bush, like to clear the way so I won’t get scratched and all. Oh my god, it was awful [laughter]. Beautiful though! So when I got to this opening area, is where, because I don’t know how long I walked because it was so beautiful in the bush anyways. All the scent, everything, all these little critters, everything was so beautiful. All kinds of berries, I could eat berries when I'm walking. And then finally I came to this opening, it was almost like a spot made for me to sit down. Because there was an old log that looked like it was decaying or whatever, it fell over. And that’s where I finally sat down. So as I sat down, I started looking at the ground, Mother Earth, and then I felt I needed to lay down, so I laid down. Oh, I just loved being on Mother Earth, it just felt so beautiful. And it was a beautiful sunny day, and of course there’s nothing but trees around me, and leaves. Then all of a sudden the wind would start, and as I lay there, I was looking up through the leaves, looking at the sun. And as I lay there, all of a sudden I started seeing like people dancing. Beautiful, beautiful people dancing. Going one way, going the other way. Oh, I just loved it, and all that smell of the lake, the fresh trees, the grass – everything was so beautiful at that point. And then all of a sudden, the longer I lay there, I hear beautiful singing. Beautiful, beautiful singing, and I had no idea where everything was coming from. I just loved it, I didn’t want to leave. This is where I wanted to stay, and I could hear these little critters crawling around. And because these are our spirit guides, and I didn't know that as a child. Everything around me had to have been a spirit, because I felt so secure, I felt so... I felt so loved and I just felt that peace, I didn’t want to leave from there. So without realizing it, I must have spent the day there, because all of a sudden it was getting dark. And now I didn’t know where I was. So, I had to kind of climb the tree, look around, ‘okay, the sun is setting that way, gotta figure out which way the sun’s setting...’ And then this way, I gotta try and figure out how to get home. So, I figured it out and then I said, ‘okay, it has to be this way. Well, if not I'll wind up at the lake somewhere’ [laughter]. So I started walking. And then of course, being – my grandmother didn’t like bugs and it was like a big golf course where the yard was so clean of grass, there would be no mosquitoes, nothing. So at the end of the bush, I was finally - ‘oh my god, I'm home!’ I was so tired. Cause being a little child, it’s - it’s a struggle walking through the bush. And I'm never scared of the bush, I'll go through the bush any time – day or night. We were – we were never brought up in fear. We never heard the name ‘devil’, ‘evil’, or anything like that, until we came to the city, that’s when we first – we didn’t know what it was. So it wasn’t something that we were forced to be scared of. So as I got there, I could see the house and I could see my grandmother’s little face through the little window. It was pure glass with four frames, like back then there was – houses were solid, and there was no plastic anywhere. And as soon as I see her face, ‘oh my god my granny!’ and I – I just all of a sudden missed her, I wanted to see her, I wanted to love her. I started running, then when I looked again she was gone and I said ‘oh, what’s going on.’ So I started walking, and just before I got to the door, she opened the door. [To be Transcribed - 23:05 – 23:09]. She goes ‘oh you’re finally here, it’s already evening.’ I said ‘yes.’ [To be Transcribed - 23:13]. Cause there was a – my grandfather, my grandfather and my great-grandfather made her a chair by the door where she could sit comfortably and there was a shade there, so she told me to sit there. [To be Transcribed - 23:25 – 23:27]. She said, ‘I cooked something, so I'm gonna eat of it.’ And that’s when it hit me, ‘oh my god I’m starving,’ I didn't even eat [laughter], and I didn’t drink nothing either. So, all of a sudden it just hit me, ‘oh my god, I'm so hungry, I'm so dry.’ And because I just loved being with Mother Nature, that it didn’t even matter at all. I had no care for anything else, just to be with that dancing and that singing. It was so beautiful. Some of these days, I wish I could go back to that spot where I was as a child, it was so beautiful. But it’s in my heart, it’s something that I will never forget. So as I sat with her, she put her arm around me, she said [To be Transcribed - 24:09 – 24:12]. ‘okay, tell me, did you see anything?’ And of course I’m not going to say anything, I didn’t want her to think I was crazy. Like who was dancing out there, who was singing. So I didn’t want to say anything, I didn’t want to tell her, I wanted to keep that to myself. But she encouraged me, [To be Transcribed - 24:30 – 23:36]. She would ask, ‘so did you hear anything, or did you see anything?’ And then, [To be Transcribed - 24:41 – 24:43] -  she goes, ‘I want to go get what you’re going to eat. So that’s when I felt better and I told her. Well, at first I didn’t know how to start, I said, ‘well, I’ve seen dancing in the trees, I don’t know who was dancing but beautiful dancing. And I heard singing, beautiful singing.’ [To be Transcribed - 25:00 – 25:02], she goes, ‘oh, that’s what I wanted to hear’ she’d tell me. And that was it. And to me, that’s vision quest [laughter]. And no explanation whatsoever, what it was. It wasn’t only me, it was my siblings too. Because I remember seeing my little brother walking in the bush, I knew exactly what he was going to go through. So – but back in those days, we couldn’t talk about anything like that, it had to be really hidden. So that was my experience with that. 

(25:29 – 25:41) Doris Peltier: 

Wow. That is amazing, Gayle –  like uhm – and I think we know why it couldn’t be talked about. 

(25:41 – 25:43) Gayle Pruden: 

Mhmm, yes. 

(25:44 – 25:51) Doris Peltier: 

But obviously your grandparents and your great-grandfather were traditional people. 

(25:52 – 26:04) Gayle Pruden: 

Yes, very much. Without us knowing, there was no labels, nothing. It was just lived. That was all it is, just lived. No words, no labels, nothing. 

(26:05 – 26:11) Doris Peltier: 

In your dialect of annishnabemowin, what do you call Elders, like [To be Transcribed - 26:11]. 

(26:11 – 26:21) Gayle Pruden: 

Yeah, [To be Translated – 26:12 – 26:18] it’s like big people. 

(26:22) Doris Peltier: 

Yeah 

(26:22 – 26:24) Gayle Pruden: 

We never had that word, ‘Elder’. 

(26:25 – 26:45) Doris Peltier: 

Yeah, we call them [To be Transcribed - 26:26]. In my dialect, that’s what we call the elders. [To be Transcribed - 26:32]. Yeah, and it was – it was just kind of a matter of fact. You know, like there was no, ‘let’s put this Elder on a – this person on a pedestal.’ There was none of that. 

(26:45 – 27:31) Gayle Pruden: 

Everybody was equal. I remember even – even the older people, they would talk to us like we were regular people. We were never put higher or lower than anybody else. Of course, when you’re fooling around, you’re being told, ‘don’t do this, don’t do that.’ That’s only natural, right, that’s the only way to learn. And even when we got in trouble – like, not great big trouble but anything at all. It wasn’t only one she would talk to, she would talk to all of us. So we had to work like a team, not to get in trouble [laughter]. And it was so beautiful though, because there was no – there was no rules or regulations in the bush. Free! 

(27:30 – 28:55) Doris Peltier: 

I know, that’s right! I mean, every time I’ve talked with somebody for this podcast... every time, every time when I ask somebody, you know, I don’t want to hear your bio version, I don’t want to read your bio about everything you’ve accomplished. I want people to hear who you are, and I want people to hear you talk about who you are and where you’re from, and maybe who you belong to. And I just – tell us that story. And every time people talk about that connection to the land. Like, even for me like when you talk about going into the bush... The very first podcast, the two guests talked about playing in the woods all the time as children. [GAYLE: Yes] And me, I shared with them that we played in the woods as children. That was our playground. [GAYLE: Oh yeah, yup.] Yeah, we would go out there and look for the first lady slipper, we would go out there and look for the first trillium, or the berries that grew in there, like in, you know, we would look for those. And sometimes we’d get sent to go pick morels. But most times we were just playing in there, it was our playground. And then I told them, you know, I felt safe in the woods. 

(28:55 – 28:57) Gayle Pruden: 

Exactly, exactly. 

(28:57 – 29:06) Doris Peltier: 

Because there’s too much dysfunction and trauma happening in the community. This is where we went, that was where our safety was. Amongst the trees. 

(29:07 – 31:23) Gayle Pruden: 

Oh yes, yup. And you know, with the ancestors in there... Like, as a child you can’t tell. But you know, as you think about it, why do you think you felt safe? Because there were ancestors there, there was grandmothers, grandfathers, all spirits travelling around everywhere. And of course they want to protect us, little beings. And that’s just so beautiful. And there’s another little thing I also just remembered. How, uhm, as a child – where uhm... because we had these great big cast iron stoves, and I knew right away as soon as I’m in the kitchen... my grandmother had these four little rocks, perfectly round little rocks. And as soon as I would see her placing these on the floor, I knew right away, ‘oh my god, oh my god I can’t wait.’ I knew right away we were going to be smudged, but at that time it wasn’t called anything. It was just something that she did, planting all of us. So she’d placed these four little rocks on the floor. And then she’d get these two chairs and she’d put a great big white sheet, cover it up. And then I’d be the first one to go in there because I’m the oldest – I even had the first bath, like everybody else... [laughter]. So anyways, as soon as I sit there, all of a sudden I could see her little hands from under the sheet. She’d use one of those pickers to pick that round thing off the stove, and she’d place it on those four rocks. Oh my god, that thing was just piping hot, hot hot,  I could feel the heat from that, because I’m right next to it. So that was the first thing she did. Then the second thing was, her little hand would come out with this medicine, that – that medicine was dancing. But that smell, oh my god, it was just – I would just close my eyes and I could just feel it go through my body, it was so beautiful, what it was. And that was our cleansing, not only for me but all of us, we all went in there. I was the first one in, then my little brothers would go in, and we would all feel the same. Right after that, we’d go to bed. It was so beautiful. And we didn’t know what she was doing, it was just part of our life. 

(31:25 – 31:35) Doris Peltier: 

Oh, that’s beautiful Gayle. Did you ever – I wonder... You knew you were two-spirit when you were a little child... 

(31:35 – 33:22) Gayle Pruden: 

Oh yes, and they did too, I’m pretty sure they did. [DORIS: Yeah?] Because when I got older, is when the cousins that I grew up.. I grew up with my cousins also. Most of them were female. And they told me, they said, ‘you know, we always knew. We just wanted you to say something, and you never said nothing so why should we. We loved you for who you were.’ It just never came out to talk about. And they were so, so protective over me. Nobody was able to offend me in anyway or for me to dislike myself for who I was. I was just right in that crowd of love and support, as I still do to this day. When I meet people, I love to support as much as I can, whatever little I have, I’ll help, I’ll give. And it’s just the way that... it’s in my heart, it’s set in my heart to live this way for as long as I remain on Mother Earth. That’s how I’ll always be, always giving, and it feels so beautiful to give. Because as.. I’ve always seen my grandmothers, I’ve never – hardly ever seen her take, it was always give, give, give. It didn’t matter who came to the house. Like, that doesn’t happen anymore. She used to have three or four great big gigantic bannock sitting right there. And if people would come, I could see her cooking she’d be running around the kitchen, of course we’d get thrown out. She’d be cooking up a storm so as soon as people got in, she’d set the plate. Everybody would be asked to eat, and that’s just the way it was. All that work from a tiny little woman like that was so beautiful to see. We don’t see that no more, and I wish it would come back. 

(33:23 – 34:47) Doris Peltier: 

No, I wish it would... [To be Transcribed - 33:26 – 33:28]. Gayle, so this podcast that we’re working on, it’s called ‘Indigenous Sexual Futures’. [GAYLE: Mhmm.] And I really liked this story you shared about your grandmother sending you for those little vision quests. Of calling them a vision quest. [GAYLE: No, we didn’t know what it was.] Yeah, so she was doing something for you there, so when we talk about future... like even the title of the podcast, ‘Indigenous Sexual Futures’, some people thought, ‘are you just going to be talking about the future on this podcast?’ No, because as Indigenous people, we’re going into the future. [GAYLE: Right] And some of us can see the future. [GAYLE: Right] We have a vision for where we’re going [GAYLE: Exactly]. And like our old people, like your grandfather had that vision, and your grandmother had that vision for you. And, we know where we’re going. And, so in terms of STBBIs and talking about sex or sexuality... you know, how can we talk about that in a – in a good way? Using our knowledge as Anishnaabe. 

(34:48 – 36:05) Gayle Pruden: 

Well, the way I think is that, because... I do remember hearing my grandmother telling my late mother how to... to me, it made no sense. But, when you really think about it, it's so true. I remember my grandmother telling her, [To be Transcribed - 35:15 – 35:30]. So, in translation, what she was telling my mother was ‘you’re only given life once. With this life that you have, respect it. Live your life the best you can. It’s your – it's your, it’s your life, it’s your body. It’s almost like, you know, you gotta protect what’s within you in order for you to live a long beautiful prosperous life.’ And it was just as simple as that. Respect yourself, or nobody else will. 

(36:05 – 36:13) Doris Peltier: 

And take care of that body. [GAYLE: Yes] That you are given. [GAYLE: Yes] That’s beautiful, I love that Gayle. 

(36:13 – 44:23) Gayle Pruden: 

Yes, yeah. But that’s the other thing too. My grandparents never went to residential school. And with these pure teachings that we grew up with, they weren’t influenced by any means, by any of the western ways, because I don’t remember any of those western ways. It was all pure love and soft-spoken people who I never heard yelling at anybody angrily. It was always just normal talking, it didn’t matter what it was. And nobody ever yelled or got angry, that angry tone. And I know for a fact that came from residential school. Because now, when I sit with people, even older than me, I could hear that in their... in their delivery of messages. How, they feel that anger, they need to be heard, they want to be heard. But that comes from that residential school. My grandmother never raised her voice. It didn’t matter who came to the house, she would never ever... I never heard – well of course I heard her raise her voice to my grandfather but that’s different [laughter]. That’s different, and we knew that. [To be Transcribed - 37:35 – 37:37] Poor grandfather’s in trouble again. [laughter]… but that’s the only time! Yeah, there’s a lot of wonderment about... even like you know. A lot of people don’t touch on to incest, it does exist. Because for myself, I went through that also. Even though I had a beautiful, beautiful childhood, it happened to me. But this, old man that molested me... I had no idea what he was doing, I didn’t know what it was, I didn’t know anything about sex. All I know was that he hurt me a lot, and I didn’t know what it was. And I couldn’t talk about that, I had to carry that with me until my late-thirties, was when I was able to... It didn’t eat away at me, I forgave him. But it was something that I never wanted another child to live through. And I’m pretty sure that’s... well I shouldn’t say I'm pretty sure, I know for a fact that’s the reason why I raised a child from the age of three. Because of what I went through. I wanted to save one child at least from going through what I went through. And I did it. She's now 26 and she has two beautiful children. And the thank-you that I got from where was her saying to me, ‘Mom, I’m going to raise my kids the way you raised me.’ and that’s all I needed to hear. So I know I did something right in this lifetime, by saving her. But back to that incest... the only reason why I broke my story was because on that reserve where that happened... I had already left, like I was already growing up, living in a city... I heard about it. There was a little girl on the reserve complaining about the same old man that molested me. And he was already supposed to be like a well-respected human being, or whatever. And people weren’t believing this child, saying she was being a trouble maker, and that really hit me hard. So hard that I... I felt the anger build up in me. I wanted to do something, but I didn’t know where to begin, and my late mother was still alive. She was the first one who I turned to. It took me forever to even spit out one word of how to begin to explain what I went through, cause I – I still didn’t know what it was. So when I told her, she blamed herself. And I told her, ‘no, don’t blame yourself. When you left us with my grandparents, that was the most beautiful gift that you could have given any of us. Otherwise we wouldn’t know our language, we wouldn’t know our culture, we wouldn’t know nothing without these people.’ Even though I went through that I said... and he held it against me. When he would be done doing whatever it was he was doing, if you tell anybody I'm going to do the same thing to your brothers. And that I would never allow because I loved my siblings. To this day, I still love my siblings and they all love me. They respect me because I’m the oldest. And they were very mad at me too when I broke that story, why didn’t I ever tell anybody. What am I supposed to tell? What do I say, how do I say it? I don’t even know what happened. All I know is I was being shamed, and being hurt, ripping my spirit apart, without knowing. So, a lot of times when I do these zoom meetings - I do a lot of zoom meetings – I bring that up all the time, because it’s got to be heard. It still exists, and I know it does. But how do you deal with it, that’s the main thing. So what happened with this little girl, I phoned back the reserve, I knew some older people who I thought I could turn to. But of course, shot me right down, because of my lifestyle. Like that stigma of being a trans... it always will never leave. Even as I brought up my daughter, I – I experienced that. But like my grandmother always said, those are just words, put it all into Creator’s hands, it’ll be fine. Believing in that is what got me through. So, I phoned the first woman I got a hold of, an older lady. She answered the phone and I told her about my story. And all she said was, ‘well you deserved it, look at who you are.’ How do – how do I deserve that? I didn’t know who I was... Creator put me here, I don’t know. So that was the first phone call. The second one, pretty much the same thing. She said, ‘you don’t come back here trying to cause trouble, you stay where you’re at.’ And these are like all older people who should know better. But I didn’t give up. There was finally one person who finally listened to me, and I said ‘you believe this girl, she’s telling the truth because it happened to me.’ But, little did I know, when the story broke it wasn’t only me. It was a bunch of other girls that he had raped throughout the years, at the same time raping me. And it was so painful, we all sat together, we didn’t go into the details or nothing, but just to sit together and to be these victims that this pervert took advantage of as children, without us knowing. So, when I talk about the zoom, I always leave it by saying: ‘What’s more important to you? The reputation of the family or the spirit of this child? Think about it.’ And it’s so true. So when we got together with this little girl, we took a trip and we sat with her and we told her it’s going to be okay. You’ll survive it. Whatever it is you went through, let it go, put it in Creator’s hands. That's what we did. That’s something too that I... rarely talk about. But I feel I must, and I have to, and I will. Because this is my – this is my walk and this is my talk. So... if it’s still happening, I wish it wouldn’t. There's no need for that, especially for a beautiful, beautiful young spirit being put on, not knowing what’s happening. Because that really ripped me up, like that tore me apart. And if – today, I feel so strong. Creator always helped me. 

(44:23 – 45:39) Doris Peltier: 

I think that – that teaching you talked about earlier about taking care of your body, it’s yours. [GAYLE: Yes] And, there’s a bit of self-determination – there's a really good teaching in that. Especially in Anishinaabemowin, the way you said it. The way your grandmother said that to you. I think we need more of those kinds of messages. [GAYLE: Yes] So that those kinds of things don’t happen if they’re still happening today... maybe they’re not happening as much today as they were before because we’re talking about it, right? [GAYLE: Yes, yes] So any kind of perpetrator out there might be afraid, ‘oh they’re talking about this in my community, maybe I shouldn’t be committing this.’ I don’t know, but I think we need that strengths-based approach, like your grandmother that – what she said to you. [GAYLE: Mhmm] Like going into the future, but there’s healing that needs to take place, right, before we can talk about those beautiful things. [GAYLE: Oh yes] Those beautiful relationships that one can have. [GAYLE: Oh yeah] I mean, we can still talk about that, right? 

(45:39 – 46:56) Gayle Pruden: 

Right, yeah, yup. It’s an experience that, you know... there’s no way... Like I know a lot of people think and say there’s healing. It's a permanent scar that’s going to be with... it’s just the way you deal with it within yourself. With your own spirit. You need to be in true connection with Creator, that’s the only way. I truly believe that, because you know, with my life, the way that it is today, I don’t think I would be sitting here today if it wasn’t for that drum, that grandfather drum that keeps me going. Even if I get sick, I yearn to go find a drum, a big drum that’s the grandfather drum, and this is what keeps my heartbeat going. And with this jingle dress that I wear, I share the healing that comes from it. And that I myself get the healing from it, and I truly believe that because there’s so much healing that needs to take place. And we’ve, as Anishinaabe people have these sacred items that Creator left us that we can share with the world in our healing journey for ourselves and everybody else that walks with us equally. 

(46:57 – 50:51) Doris Peltier: 

Mhmm, mhmm... Wow, this has been a beautiful conversation, there’s so much here... chi-miigwech to my sister and friend, Gayle Pruden. My friend, you are loved by so many. What an amazing journey you are on. From that little girl who danced in that garden to great-grandfather singing. To now dancing for healing with your jingle dress, and so much more. As I prepared this episode, I reached out to Gayle several times via telephone or on zoom, to double check with her about what I can say about her. In our last phone call, she said she does what she does for the youth. Particularly for the young trans that are emerging and see her. She didn’t call herself a role model, but that is how I see her and perhaps how they see her. Her visibility in the community is letting them know, ‘you can be who you are. You are making your next part of the journey right now. Be strong and beautiful,’ she says. Despite our dialect differences in Anishinaabemowin, I wanted to honour this beautiful human spirit, and also honour her great-grandfather and grandparents. And I named this episode after the name of the song: E-inigoowa'ikawaag oowi aki, abi-izhinoowa'amawishin. She translated it beautifully. I have one huge takeaway for this episode. Usually, I have at least two. What I heard was powerful in terms of Gayle’s upbringing. Despite the legacy of residential school in all our histories, she tells the story of embodied tradition and culture. About how the great-grandfather and grandparents raised her. They had never attended residential school, she says. They had their knowledges and lived it, and did not need to tell a crap about what a young person needed to know. They just lived it, and guided Gayle to receive what she would need to walk gently in her moccasins on Mother Earth. Other things about Gayle... in 2019, she was recognized as a grandmother at the Keeping the Fires Burning Event, which is an annual event hosted by Ka Ni Kanichihk in Winnipeg, Manitoba. 2023 marks 22 years of celebrating Indigenous resilience, relationship, and reconciliation. It says on their website that the funds raised through this event provide transformative, culturally safe service and programs. Gayle is also one of the aunties who connect with, and support, community accessing Ka Ni Kanichik’s Mino Pimatisiwin Sexual Wellness Lodge for the ‘Ask Auntie’ initiative. Amazing work Manitoba, and amazing work Gayle. Hope you all enjoyed hearing Gayle’s story. In closing, we would like to acknowledge our funders, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, for making yet another aspect of the Feast Centre possible. Thank you for tuning in, this is Doris Peltier your host, signing off. Baamaa-pii miniwas kakinoodidme. Miigwech.